Writing words that sell with Vanessa Green | Ep. 19 Content Magic with Lindsay Smith

Welcome back, Content Magicians!

In this episode, I'm welcoming my friend and copywriter, Vanessa Green from Greenlight Content. 

Vanessa and I are real life friends and have a lot in common. We went to the same journalism school (at different times) and we both transitioned to copywriting and content strategy.

And, in this episode, we are chatting about how to define copywriting, why having a journalism background is a secret superpower, why brand voice is so important and the marriage of copywriting and web design. 

We really nerd out on the intricacies of copywriting and content so you won't want to miss this! 

03:10 Forced into freelance work due to circumstances.
08:05 Overcoming challenges in writing and journalism skills.
10:26 Copywriting is different from regular writing; it sells.
16:17 Tailor copy based on audience sophistication and needs.
18:43 Tailor your content to your specific audience.
20:45 Copy leads design, designers prefer structured content.
25:37 Invest in client stories for genuine endorsements.
27:22 Testimonials provide valuable insight for business strategies.
30:35 Vanessa Green, on maternity leave, content creator


CONNECT WITH VANESSA!
Instagram: @greenlightcontent
Website: greenlightcontent.ca
LinkedIn: Greenlight Content

Lindsay [00:00:00]:
Do you like, how would you define copywriting? What is it that we do with words?

Vanessa [00:00:07]:
Yeah, it's a good question. I think the difference between sort of just regular writing or like fiction writing or academic writing, copywriting is designed to sell.

Lindsay [00:00:17]:
If you have an online business, you're creating content. And the way you create content is more important than ever. It's really noisy out there and learning to stand out is the only way. Hey, I'm Lindsay and I'm the host of the content Magic podcast, all about being an entrepreneur and creating kick ass content to market yourself and your business. I have a not so secret superpower for copywriting, marketing and content, and I've helped hundreds of folks just like you show up with a ton of confidence in the online space. I've been doing this content thing for 20 years, and I believe the real magic is a combo of intuition, creativity and strategy. You can create content for your business without losing your mind, I promise. So tune in every week for tangible content tips, inspiring guests, and some real spicy opinions.

Lindsay [00:01:08]:
Probably mine.

Lindsay [00:01:10]:
Ready to dive in?

Lindsay [00:01:11]:
Let's go. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. And we are going to really nerd out on some copywriting and journalism stuff with my friend Vanessa. Hi. So Vanessa is actually, well, in your former client I guess, too.

Vanessa [00:01:33]:
Yeah, I guess so. Friend, client, all very mixed together.

Lindsay [00:01:37]:
Yes. So fun story. Vanessa and I went to the same journalism school at different times and we have a lot in like we love the east coast and we both live in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. So can you tell the people who you are and who you help and what you do? Sure.

Vanessa [00:01:59]:
So I'm Vanessa Green. I am the owner of Greenlight Content. So it's a content marketing and copywriting consultancy. The thing I help my clients with most at the moment is website copywriting, which I know you do a lot of as well, but really anything to do with words. So email marketing, blog writing, I do content strategy as well, if they kind of don't know where to start. I've done things like press releases, I've even done people's LinkedIn bios and resumes and all kinds of things. But my real bread and butter is really like marketing content. So website copy, and then I also do like content marketing.

Vanessa [00:02:33]:
So a lot of blog writing, blog strategy, that kind of thing. I predominantly work with kind of small to medium sized businesses and my background, like you said, is in journalism. So I started out as an editor a million years ago. I used to work at Yahoo when that was a thing people used. And then, yeah, kind of pivoted into marketing and haven't looked back and started my own business three and a half years ago. So it's been great. I really like it. Love working for myself and doing writing.

Lindsay [00:03:02]:
For a same, same. So can you tell us a little bit about your journey to starting your own business?

Vanessa [00:03:10]:
Yeah. So I was kind of like forced into it, like many people are. I was working for an agency, I used to live in the UK many years ago and when I moved back to Canada, I stayed on with the agency I was working with and just worked remotely. And then right before I had my son, I kind of wrapped up working with them because I was having to travel back and forth to the UK and I'm like, I'm not going to want to do that with a newborn. So finished up working with them and then I was like freelancing for some agencies in Hamilton and then they know when you're off your mat leave, let us know and we'll have full time work for you. And I was like, awesome, great, cool. And then went on Matt leave and six months into my mat leave, the pandemic hit and so there were no jobs on the table and I was like, all right, what am I going to do? Like, I got a one year old and I need to make some money. I was like, you know what, I freelanced.

Vanessa [00:03:56]:
I'll just do it legitimately. I will start my own business, I'll do the branding, I'll get the website, I'll make a real go of it. And if it doesn't work out, then I haven't hopefully spent too much money and I can try and find a full time job when the world opens up again. But thankfully I didn't have to do that because it worked out really well. I had a great network in Hamilton, already worked with some agencies, so I was doing some white label stuff, freelancing for them, meeting some clients, working directly with them, and it kind of just snowballed from there and then I just got lots of referrals, did a lot of networking and I've been able to kind of make a go of it and it's been great. I've learned a lot. It's been so humbling. I feel like you just realize how little you know and how much there is to learn and you just make a lot of mistakes and yeah, it's been really great.

Vanessa [00:04:40]:
I feel like it's been a really incredible opportunity to grow as a person and learn a lot and realize that you don't know as much as you think, you know, because I think when I was younger, I thought I knew everything, and now I'm like, oh, no, you don't know anything.

Lindsay [00:04:52]:
Yeah, I know. I feel like mid 20s. You're just like, oh, I have all my shit together. Oh, yeah, you don't at all? No. Tell me what your most favorite thing is about running your own business.

Vanessa [00:05:09]:
Well, definitely the flexibility. So I have two kids now, and it's hard to have a full time job and have two kids and not have help. So at least with my own business, I can kind of make my own hours, take time off when I want. I don't really have anyone to answer to. I mean, obviously I have to answer to my clients, but you don't have, like, a boss micromanaging you. So I really like that freedom, and that's kind of been the motivating factor. I have often been like, well, maybe I should just go get her a full time job. And it'd be easier in so many ways, but I'm like, I can't give that up now, having that freedom.

Vanessa [00:05:42]:
And it comes with a lot of responsibility, too, obviously, but there's nothing that would like, I don't think I would ever go back to working for someone else now if I can make a living at this for the rest of my working days.

Lindsay [00:05:53]:
Yes, agreed. And I feel like once you kind of go down that path and you're just like, I feel like I'm unemployable now because I'm so used to doing my own thing. Totally, right. And the creativity part of, like, I don't know if I could, I think about my past working in advertising. I'm kind of like, I was already getting a bit of attitude. Totally advertising, right? So I'm like, I went back, I'd just be like, I'd have so much more attitude. I'd probably be later off. Oh, yeah.

Vanessa [00:06:29]:
And all the sort of bureaucracy and all the meetings, I feel like my meetings are very tight now. It's like, hey, we meet to do this thing, and this is the output and this is the purpose. And then I look at my husband. He's just in these random meetings all day that have no goal and are just totally disorganized. And I was like, that would kill me. I'm so weirdly nerdily efficient. I just like to do things and get them done and check my list off and all that stuff. To have a day where you don't get anything done because you sat in ten boring, pointless meetings that would kill me.

Lindsay [00:07:01]:
Yeah. Same. Okay, so you and I have very similar backgrounds. We went to journalism school and we both worked in journalism. And then we some would say, turned to the dark side.

Vanessa [00:07:16]:
Oh, yes, of course.

Lindsay [00:07:17]:
And sold ourselves out. And now we do copywriting. So let's talk about why is having a journalism background sort of a plus for the kind of stuff that we do?

Vanessa [00:07:30]:
Yeah, it's a good question. And I think having a journalism degree has probably been the best thing for me professionally. I think it helps set me apart from other writers because, you know, the barrier to entry for copywriting? Anyone can say they're a copywriter. Anyone can say they're a blog writer or a content marketer or whatever, because there's no real qualification. It's not like you don't have to be like a doctor and have your degree. You can just say you are and put up a website and off you go. So I feel like having a journalism gives you some level of credibility. Like, I've gone to a four year J school.

Vanessa [00:08:05]:
I've sort of gone through the hard knocks of having to write an article, interview people, having it rigorously fact checked, having to be very deadline focused, having to communicate ideas, clearly, understanding your audience, like all these things that really are so you can really compare them to how we write for clients. All those skill sets are so transferable. And so I think you're just built differently. I remember going to kings and it was like, they really do kind of break you down. I remember getting my first mark and it was like, horrendous. And I was like crying because it was like a c, and I was like, but really, it was awful. If I look back, I'm like, it wasn't good, but it was like, they broke you down, they built you back up, and then you're better person, you're a better journalist, you're a better writer. So you come out of school with this real structured approach to how you write and how you approach interviews and the questions you ask and how you get the information you need.

Vanessa [00:08:57]:
And I think writing is so much more than just writing. It's like, how do you research? How do you find the information you need? How do you ask the right questions? And those skills are a lot more difficult than just like, I'm a copywriter. You have to have those built into you to turn out really good quality copy and content for your clients.

Lindsay [00:09:17]:
Yes, I agree. And I think we're built with this natural curiosity, and that applies to my own clients as well. And I'm sure it's the same with you, because you just ask a lot of questions.

Vanessa [00:09:32]:
To an annoying degree. Yes.

Lindsay [00:09:33]:
And then you shut up. And I think a lot of people in our field, there's more talking than listening. So I feel like that curiosity has made me. Like you said, it sets us apart because we really want to dig and get the information before we attempt any kind of project. Most people that work with you or work with me, they know what copywriting is, or they know what copy is. Once in a while, there's people that have no idea what a copywriter is, and they think it's copy. R I g h t, which is.

Vanessa [00:10:14]:
Like a legal term.

Lindsay [00:10:16]:
Yeah. How would you define copywriting? What is it that we do with words?

Vanessa [00:10:26]:
Yeah, it's a good question. I think the difference between sort of just regular writing or, like, fiction writing or academic writing, copywriting is designed to sell. Right. So ultimately, when you're creating a website for your business, you're trying to sell, whether it's directly, like buy now, or it could even be indirectly, like, schedule a consultation or a free demo or a free audit, could be somewhere in that sales funnel. It doesn't always have to be making a purchase, but it's designed to push them through that sales process. And so that's kind of every bit of copy you write has to kind of be answering that question that is like, what's in it for me? What am I getting from you? What are you selling? What are you offering? And I think that's what distinguishes it from any other type of copy, like content marketing. From how I understand it and the way I talk to clients about it, content marketing, like blogs, are more about informing and educating. So you're going to write a blog post to give them information they need to help make a purchasing decision, but it's not designed to sell to them directly.

Vanessa [00:11:24]:
So I don't know, if you have a company that sells office furniture, it might not be buy an office chair now for 10% off. It could be, like, what you need to look for in the best office chair, like ergonomic considerations and design and style and all of that. So there's a difference between direct selling, like copywriting, and then informing and educating your audience, which is like content marketing.

Lindsay [00:11:46]:
Yes. Agree. Also, I had to do a lot of research for this office chair because mine was clearly not ergonomic at all. Yeah. And I agree. I think the difference between copywriting and just writing writing is that we're responsible for moving people to some sort of decision. For sure. I don't know.

Lindsay [00:12:10]:
I had a friend describe it as like, you're like a composer, but with words. I was like, oh, that's exactly what we do. And so sometimes it's hard to just know if I was talking to an alien from Mars who had no idea what copywriting was. Sometimes I have a tough time explaining what it does and what we do and why we're experts at it. And I don't know. Do most of your clients already come to you, like, knowing what a copywriter does? Or do you ever get clients who are just like, we don't know if we need your help?

Vanessa [00:12:43]:
Yeah, I mean, I think that for sure, they probably wouldn't understand the nuanced difference between these two types of writing, which they don't really need to, unless you're in this game, you wouldn't really need to understand the difference. But I do think that one thing clients often don't get, I'm sure you feel this way too, is often when we think about writing copy that sells, they're like, oh. So I just talk about how awesome I am, and it's like, well, no. And so many websites are like that. It's just like how great we are, and it's like no one cares about that. They just want problems solved. They just want to know how you're going to help them, what's in it for them. So I think while they might not understand what copywriting is, I think the bigger issue is really that they often don't understand how to write for their audience.

Vanessa [00:13:23]:
And I think they do understand that. They know that what they're writing isn't great or isn't good or isn't doing what it needs to do. But they often don't understand how to put themselves in their customers shoes. And to be fair, that's a difficult thing for anyone running their own business to do. Right. We spend so much time in our business, we're not often able to look at it from the outside. And I think that's why people like you and I are so help full, because we come in with fresh eyes, we can see what they're offering, we can highlight the benefits. I mean, people who do that day in and day out kind of don't have that ability.

Lindsay [00:13:54]:
Yes, and I totally agree. This comes down to features versus benefits. Right. And I feel like a lot of, especially your type of client, because I know, because I refer people to you.

Vanessa [00:14:10]:
Thank you for that, by the way.

Lindsay [00:14:11]:
Yeah, you got it. I feel like a lot of people want to be heavy on the features. Like, this is what you get, you kind of have to ask the question, who cares?

Vanessa [00:14:23]:
For sure.

Lindsay [00:14:25]:
Yes, and I agree. Anybody who's like, even my own self, and I'm sure it's the same for you. When I redid my website and my web editor or my web designer, she was like, oh, you need to describe your programs here. And I was like, what? Right. Like, to do it for yourself is super hard. I'm like, I can do this for anybody else but myself, for sure. So it's like the cobbler and the shoes and the whatever, right? Absolutely, yes. And I think one of the biggest things I see with my copywriting clients is there's too much information.

Lindsay [00:15:05]:
Because I think, and to be fair, I'm sure I've done the same thing, because you have so much knowledge about what it is you do. Whatever your company is or whatever your business is, you're like, I'm just going to put it all out here. Just put everything here, and then the people will understand and the people will know what we do. And I'm like, using my hands, but nobody can see them.

Vanessa [00:15:27]:
Big walls of text. Funny, because they call it the curse of knowledge. It's almost impossible to write about a topic if you know too much about it because you can't even approach it as someone who doesn't know anything. You have too much knowledge to ever see it that way for the first time. So that's also why I think it's difficult. But yes. And to go back to what you said about how you structure or too much information. I'm not a designer.

Vanessa [00:15:49]:
I have terrible artistic abilities. But I do think a lot about how you structure a web page so that it's easily digestible, so you can read it. No one wants a wall of text. And I think we talk about short attention spans, and so that's part of it. It doesn't mean you can't provide context information when it's relevant. But don't put 400 words of copy in a block of text on your home page above the fold. No one is going to read that. You need to think about headers and subheaders and call to action button and what language are you using.

Vanessa [00:16:17]:
And just to go back to what you said before, you have to know how sophisticated your audience is. If you need to educate them a lot on what you're selling, if it's new to the market or the problem isn't really defined, there's all these different things you need to take into account when you're writing copy. It's not just about. Well, just make it short. It's like, well, how much do they know? Do you need to explain a lot or are they very savvy? And you need to just be like, get right in there and cut to the chase. I think it's about understanding your audience too. And that's sort of something I try and work with my clients on because I think, and I know you'll agree, a lot of my clients, especially smaller businesses, don't spend enough time focusing on their customers and customer research and customer feedback, which I think is so valuable when I have that for a client, it's so much easier to write copy because I'm like, this is how you're benefiting your customer. It's not about what you think you're doing, it's about what they're actually realizing from working with you.

Lindsay [00:17:06]:
Yes, I agree. And I think that kind of brings us to brand voice a bit. And this is another thing. Sometimes I find it's hard to sort of describe. And someone said to me recently, what are your isms? And I was like, oh, that's good. That counts as your brand voice. And I asked somebody once and I'm like, how would you describe your brand voice? Are you approachable and friendly or do you want to be like Louis Vuitton? Do you want to be like premium high, posh and premium, yeah, luxury. So I think sometimes as copywriters we have to, well, and journalists too, we have to absorb somebody else's brand voice and figuring out how to write not like another person, but how to represent this other brand for sure.

Lindsay [00:18:06]:
How do we do that?

Vanessa [00:18:08]:
Well, it's interesting. I was just writing something for a client and they had run something through chat GPT and I was reading it and I was like, first of all, it was just awful because it is most of the time. But secondly, I'm like, I think that often a lot of clients I have, when I read the copy, they write for themselves. It's very formal. They're writing like an english essay and they're just using words that are too wordy. It doesn't mean that you have to come across as dumb. But I was thinking today I'm like, it's more important that you are approachable than you are professional. Do you know what I mean? Use language that is common to the people.

Vanessa [00:18:43]:
Obviously it depends on your audience. So if they are a very sophisticated academic audience, for example, then yeah, you probably want to write differently than if it's like a cool new EcoM brand. But generally speaking, I'm like, people don't want to read really flowery, lofty language, especially in copy. It has to be to the point. So I was just reading that being like, this is not the right tone of voice for you. I know you just threw it into chat GPT for saving money and ease or whatever, but you're losing so much of that essence of your brand by just removing all personality from it. So, yeah, I think companies need to spend more time developing that voice and they need to invest in it because I think there's so much competition that it's really difficult to stand out. So if you're just sounding like everybody else, it's just going to get lost in the noise.

Vanessa [00:19:31]:
And yeah, I like the isms thing. What is it that you represent and how does your brand reflect that, not just in the visuals, but in the words that you're using? Because it's really just as important.

Lindsay [00:19:42]:
Yes, I agree. I know. And I feel like I work with a lot of solopreneurs and service providers, but I feel like a lot of your clients, it's like robotic writing. Sometimes when we talk about branding, immediately people think of like, oh, colors and logos, business cards, and the idea of, let's just take a website, for example. Like, you and I both do web copy. So for whatever reason, when someone's building a website, I think the immediate thing they go to is like, oh, we need a web designer. Do you find that? And I have a web designer friend. I will not mention her because I don't want to outer.

Lindsay [00:20:35]:
But she has said to me, she's like, I would wager that copy is more important than web design. Do you concur or is it like a marriage?

Vanessa [00:20:45]:
I mean, I definitely think it's a marriage, but it's interesting that you should say that because for a lot of the projects I work on, they like copy to lead design, which means that I will write copy first. The designer will take the template. And I'm also very, having done this for a long time now, I'm like, okay, here's your h one, here's your subheader, here's your deck, here's your call to action. Everything is ready for them to drop into a template, and they will then design around that structure. And it's funny because most of the designers I work with say they prefer that because they're like, I like the copy, too. I don't want to assume what the copywriter needs and be like, okay, you have 30 words here and ten words here. I'd rather they write what they need to write and then I will design around it. And I think there's a lot of different ways to approach it.

Vanessa [00:21:31]:
If you're a giant ecom company with a really complicated offering, you're probably going to need like UX and UI designers to come in and control that whole flow. But for our clients who are smaller, I think it is a preferred way to do it because then you get the messaging and then also the designers can then use that to inform their design choices. Right. Like they're going to read the copy and get a lot of ideas about who's the audience, what are we trying to sell. So I think that more important, I don't know. I wouldn't say that because I've seen a lot of websites where the copy might be good, but the design is shitty and you kind of lost that magic. But I do think that it goes the other way too. It doesn't matter how beautiful your site is.

Vanessa [00:22:12]:
If what copies is crappy, then you have no messaging and. Yeah, exactly. But definitely a marriage. I love when I work with a developer and we've done a bunch of projects together and he's great. And whenever I see it come together, I'm like, oh, it's really beautiful. And he's done such smart things and he took this and moved this around. So I think you need both for sure. But I would say that copy does kind of trump the sort of process.

Vanessa [00:22:40]:
It kind of leads the process, I think.

Lindsay [00:22:42]:
Yeah, obviously I agree, because I'm a big word nerd.

Vanessa [00:22:47]:
Just preaching to the choir.

Lindsay [00:22:48]:
Yeah, exactly. So if you're a web designer listening, please let us know. Would you like your copywriter to give you stuff first, or do you prefer to just design stuff with Laura Mipsum and we just fill in stuff? Yeah. So recently I worked with somebody who, she wanted me to review a sales page, and it was interesting because it was very clear that she used a template and was just putting words in it. And so she kept repeating the same thing. Same thing, same thing. And I was kind of like, you only need to say these things. I sometimes I think, I don't know where I'm going with this.

Lindsay [00:23:32]:
We already talked about this.

Vanessa [00:23:33]:
Well, I think a template can be really restrictive, though. And I think that's the problem you run into with if a designer uses like a standard template, right. And they exist. Right. There's like Shopify templates and whatever. And I think those are good for people who just want to get something off the ground. But if you're like, I'm going to invest time and money in my website. I feel like you got to move away from the DIY option if people are going to pay you and I to write copy for them.

Vanessa [00:23:54]:
It's like you've clearly decided you're at this stage where it's like you're ready to really go to the next level with your branding and your messaging. So using a template is like, just throw that out the window. We don't need more templates in the world. Let this person come and understand your business and draw out all the important things and craft messaging in a way that's compelling and not repetitive. Obviously, I'm not a fan of templates. I think they serve a purpose. If you're like, just got to get my website up. Just got to DIY because I don't have any money.

Vanessa [00:24:24]:
But when you're ready to start dealing with freelancers and professional writers and professional designers, you got to kind of take a new approach.

Lindsay [00:24:33]:
Yes, I agree. I think for sure, like, a template is great. If you're starting. My first website, it's on Kajabi and I just chose a bunch of stuff and put it in for sure. Which brings up another point. When it comes to your website, as your business grows or as your company grows or shifts, you're probably going to want to redo it, right? Totally. When you get to a certain point, some of your offers might drop away. You might have something new, you might want to have a new logo or new colors or whatever.

Lindsay [00:25:09]:
So I think that's worth mentioning, too. Totally. The website you have now might not be the website you have in five years from now. Because sometimes stuff changes.

Vanessa [00:25:18]:
My clients, I'm like, your website is never done. Which is great news for me because I'll always work. But also it helps clients. I think that there's a desire to be like, k, done. That website, done. It's checked and we move on. But you have to keep it updated. I spend so much time updating my website, I add case studies.

Vanessa [00:25:37]:
That's something else I think is really important. That I think a lot of clients should invest more in is talk to your customers, write their stories, talk about how you help them. Because ultimately the case studies are the one place where it's not you talking about yourself, it's someone else talking about how great you are. And there's no better endorsement than that. But clients often don't invest the time. Or I'm, I'm like annoying to a fault with clients. I'm like, please leave me a Google review and then I will use that Google review in my case study and then it looks like kind know a whole holistic thing where I didn't just lie about this job, I did. Here's someone who actually works there and told me that they liked it.

Vanessa [00:26:12]:
So yeah, I think that you kind of have to take an iterative approach to website development and design and copywriting that it's never going to be finished and you should always be tweaking and updating it. And whether you're doing a full overhaul or just like a small refresh, it's important not to just let it go stale. Like whenever I go to a website and their copyright at the bottom of their website is like 2019 and you don't care about your website. You've not put any love in here. It's obvious when it hasn't been touched in years.

Lindsay [00:26:45]:
I was just talking about it this morning with another group I'm in and I just noticed that Kajabi updated for you. I was know. I know that's handy.

Vanessa [00:26:55]:
Yeah.

Lindsay [00:26:57]:
So what else was I going to say? I had one more question and I forget. Oh yeah, your case studies. I love that you have that, your case studies. And I think that's something that people forget is asking for testimonials and something I definitely forget for my own business is asking for testimonials and getting sort of that third party recommendation.

Vanessa [00:27:22]:
But also, I'm going to add one thing I also really love about testimonials is that I've learned so much about where I provide value. I think I do thing a, but actually clients getting thing b for me. And also it helps you understand how you stand out, what your differentiators are, what they liked about working with you, and all of those things. Sometimes you don't have that insight unless you get it directly from a customer. And I say the same thing to my clients, I'm like, that's going to be the best way to inform your strategy and your messaging. It's like, what are people saying about you that's positive? So I feel like that's sometimes overlooked. Clients are so focused on, we just have to get this messaging out and this is what we want to say and that's important. But if it doesn't jive with what people are saying about your business, then there's a disconnect there.

Vanessa [00:28:10]:
So it's kind of a really important part. And I go on to my clients about it to a painful degree where I'm like, you really need to listen to your customers because they're going to give you the best sort of marketing insight.

Lindsay [00:28:23]:
Yeah. And I agree. I mean, obviously I agree with everything you're saying.

Vanessa [00:28:31]:
Full of useful.

Lindsay [00:28:32]:
We're so smart. Which is really like a bit of market research. Totally. And I agree. I had a client send me an email yesterday, and she was kind of like, she was like, here's all this stuff you've given me. And I was like, what? That's what I'm good at.

Vanessa [00:28:56]:
You don't even know.

Lindsay [00:28:57]:
You don't even know. So sometimes when you get that feedback from clients, you're like, oh, is that what I helped you with? And I did some, I made an effort a few weeks ago to do like a ton of market research, and I was kind of like, oh, isn't that interesting? So sometimes for any kind of small business, those testimonials or those case studies or whatever it is, gives you really valuable feedback. Totally. Which allows you to really nail your messaging and be like, okay, this is what's resonating with people.

Vanessa [00:29:30]:
Yeah, 100%. And I actually had, I know, like a friend of mine I went to school with started kind of a customer research business, and she talked about review mining is what she calls it. So mining your reviews for all these nuggets. And she said the other thing that's really useful to do is almost going through your competitors feedback and looking like, what are they doing well? Or what are they not doing well? How can you fill that gap if there's like a real, they're getting negative reviews, where is that gap that you could fill or offer something different? So there's so many ways to use reviews and competitor research to try and improve your offering. And I think, again, certainly overlooked by the majority of my clients. And I try and kind of really showcase how important that can be to strengthening their brand messaging.

Lindsay [00:30:15]:
Yes, agree. Obviously, I agree.

Vanessa [00:30:18]:
How many times did we say agree in this podcast?

Lindsay [00:30:21]:
I don't know, but I'm here for it, though. My podcast editor will tell you. I say right all the time, like a question mark. So, Vanessa, where can people find you?

Vanessa [00:30:35]:
So I am at Greenlightcontent ca. I'm also on LinkedIn. Vanessa Green. I'm on Instagram Greenlight content. Again, I'm taking a little hiatus because I'm on mat leave right now with a five month old. But I'm trying to do what I can fill in those gaps when I have time. But, yeah, that's kind of where I am and in real life sometimes just hanging around, you know, being a big nerd. I also write for Hamilton City magazine, so.

Vanessa [00:31:05]:
Yeah, feature writer, which is nice. Kind of helps keep my journalistic muscle working. Yeah, I guess that's kind of it.

Lindsay [00:31:14]:
Yeah. I don't know if I could write, like, I'm sure I could. I'm pretty sure, yeah, it would come back, but, yeah, I feel like it'd be really like riding a bike. Be like, what am I doing? Okay, I got it.

Vanessa [00:31:27]:
My wheels need air. This handlebars doesn't work.

Lindsay [00:31:31]:
My pedals are broken. Yeah. Thank you for coming. I love nerding out with you on all things content copy.

Vanessa [00:31:40]:
Thanks for having me. It's been lovely.

Lindsay [00:31:42]:
Okay, well, toodleoo.

Vanessa [00:31:43]:
Yeah, we'll chat soon. Have a good one.

Lindsay [00:31:46]:
Thank you so much for listening. If you loved what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, or share this episode on social media. And don't forget to tag me on Instagram at Lindsay Smith Creative. And if you do all three, I'll be your best friend forever and invite you to all my birthday parties. That's it for today, and I'll see you next time.