The simple mindset shift for creating a successful online course | Ep. 28 Content Magic with Lindsay Smith

We have another awesome guest on this episode of Content Magic.  Shannon Boyer is a seasoned educator with a background in teaching and curriculum development. With over 20 years of experience, she shifted her expertise to helping other entrepreneurs build digital courses.

In this episode, Shannon and I talk about how the creation of an online course is currently being sold, why it's actually a lot more work and why putting the work in will pay off for students and clients.

We also talk about the responsibility of the course creator, the mindset hack that will help you achieve success and what to avoid to if you truly want to stand out in the crowded online education space.

If you have an online course or have been thinking about creating one, you don't want to miss this convo with Shannon!

03:04 Transition to online course creation post-pandemic.
06:20 Creating course shifts mindset, shared responsibility.
09:36 Instructors need to be realistic about courses.
14:43 Expert facilitation results in confidence and conviction.
16:51 Emphasis on content in online courses shifting.
22:25 Revising role in online course creation misunderstood.
23:35 "Defining content is difficult, but necessary."
26:28 Expressing gratitude and inviting further engagement.

CONNECT WITH SHANNON!
Instagram: @shannonlboyer
Website: shannonlboyer.com
Free call: Sip and Share Wednesdays

Lindsay [00:00:00]:
But I'm really leaning into the nerdy stuff this year and I feel like it's paying off, so.

Shannon [00:00:05]:
Absolutely.

Lindsay [00:00:06]:
Long live the nerdy stuff.

Shannon [00:00:09]:
Absolutely. And in your defense, the majority of people who are creating courses, you know they're not doing it with ill intent. And nor were you.

Lindsay [00:00:19]:
If you have an online business, you're creating content. And the way you create content is more important than ever. It's the really noisy out there and learning to stand out is the only way. Hey, I'm Lindsay and I'm the host of the content Magic podcast, all about being an entrepreneur and creating kick ass content to market yourself and your business. I have a not so secret superpower for copywriting, marketing and content, and I've helped hundreds of folks just like you show up with a ton of confidence in the online space. I've been doing this content thing for 20 years and I believe the real magic is a combo of intuition, creativity and strategy. You can create content for your business without losing your mind, I promise. So tune in every week for tangible content tips, inspiring guests, and some real spicy opinions.

Lindsay [00:01:11]:
Probably mine. Ready to dive in? Let's go. Hi, gang. Welcome back to content magic. And I am excited to introduce you to my friend Shannon. Hi, Shannon.

Shannon [00:01:23]:
Hi. Thank you for having me.

Lindsay [00:01:24]:
Oh, a pleasure. Full disclosure, Shannon and I are in a program together, so I'm a big fan of hers. So can you tell the people who you are and where you are and what you do and who you help?

Shannon [00:01:38]:
Sure. So I am in Canada as well. I am in Edmonton, Alberta, and I have been an educator for more than 20 years. So I started out teaching in the public system. Actually, I started out teaching in England, but that's another story. I soon became kind of disillusioned with teaching, as many new teachers are, and I was very young and I left teaching. And through the work that I was doing with a nonprofit, I realized that there was a gap in the education system in Alberta. And I went to the government and I said, there's a gap.

Shannon [00:02:17]:
Can you fill it? And they said, we'd love to, but nobody wants to do it. So I went to college and I said, there's a gap. Do you want to fill it? And he said, sure, we would love to. Do you want to come design the program and teach it? And I said, okay, sure. So I got back into teaching, long story short, and I worked for many years, almost 20 years at the college, teaching, leading curriculum development teams, being in charge of student success and engagement. I moved into administration and really honed my skills in developing courses and programs and curriculum. During that time, I won an award. I went back to school and got my master's degree in education because I realized I really wanted to know more about this teaching and learning thing.

Shannon [00:03:04]:
Like, I just realized there's a lot more to it than what I learned in my undergrad degree. And then I had two kids in my forties and as many people were affected by the pandemic, I had those two kids in my forties during the pandemic and I was presented with an opportunity to take a voluntary buyout from my job that I loved that I thought I would retail retire at because of low enrollment due to Covid. And I kind of said like, you're going to pay me more than a year to stay home with my kids. Sure, I'll do that. At about the same time, I started taking some online courses and as many people do, looking for a way to be more flexible with my kids and what's this side hustle thing and all the rest of it. And I realized there's a lot of people out there who have amazing expertise, but they just don't have the educational background to know how to really package those expertise in a way that will best showcase their expertise and then help their students get results and make sure they have a really effective course. So that's how I kind of started moving into this world that I'm in now, where we met of helping online course creators create really, really effective courses. So what I teach is high touch, high quality, high impact online courses.

Lindsay [00:04:28]:
Love that. And when you say the college, what do you, what do you, what are you referencing?

Shannon [00:04:32]:
Oh, yeah. So I worked at a community college in, in Edmonton and I worked in the foundational. So it's kind of, it's a good question because people sometimes hear that and then think I'm like an academic. Like they're university professors who are lecturing and that is not me. I worked with students who either came to Canada many times as refugees and did have a lot of foundational education, formal education, I should say, or people who had gone through the canadian education system and due to their backgrounds, weren't able to be successful that first time around, sometimes because of learning disabilities, other times because of their home life or addictions and a bunch of other things. And so that was when I, that was really what inspired me to go back and get my master's degree, was because I was like, okay, these are students who didn't learn how to be effective learners in their childhood and now they're trying to do it as adults. So what can I do to really facilitate this process and help them achieve their goals as quickly and efficiently as possible? So that's why, like, the focus of what I do is really on teaching and learning.

Lindsay [00:05:43]:
So something that you said recently was that, like, you know, so many of us have created courses, various courses, or are in the process of creating a course. And something you said recently is that we don't. We. There's, like, a lack where we don't think of ourselves as educating other people. And I thought that was really cool because I was like, I'm not sure I ever thought. I mean, I consider myself an expert in what I do, but the education piece, I think, is lost on people when they're creating a course. Do you concur?

Shannon [00:06:20]:
Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, one of the things that I've said is that, like, once you create a course, you are an educator, and that's a whole mindset shift that nobody's really talking about, because people think of themselves as experts and their clients or, you know, the people who they work with. But as soon as you enter this space of, like, an online course, you are an educator, and they are students. You are teaching, and they are learning. And so it creates a new dynamic, but also it creates a new responsibility, and it's a shared responsibility between the educator and the student. And sometimes that makes people uncomfortable because they want to think. And actually, I've worked with teachers who think this, too, teachers of adults who think, well, you just put it out there. They're adults.

Shannon [00:07:07]:
It's their responsibility to, like, pick up what you're putting down and learn as much as they can and that you've done your job. We've created the course. You've let them in. But I believe that there's really more to it, and it's more of like a 50 50 shared responsibility. So the student does have the responsibility to show up, to do the work, to put in the effort and all of those things. But the course creator, who is the educator, also has the responsibility to create the course in a way that makes it easy. Maybe easy isn't the right word, but makes it possible for the student to learn it without a bunch of arduous, you know, trying to figure out what's going on. You have to create a high quality course.

Shannon [00:07:53]:
So your responsibility is to create a high quality course where the student, if they're doing everything that they try to do or everything they're expected to do, can then achieve the results. If the student's doing everything and they're not achieving the results, then the course creator hasn't fulfilled their responsibility as an educator.

Lindsay [00:08:13]:
Yeah, I love that. And I love looking at it as a responsibility because it really is. And I think, you know, and I feel like, especially as women and probably like on the tails of the pandemic too, we've been sort of fed this line that, oh, just create a digital course, just put it out there and it's this evergreen course and then all this money comes in. And I think that's a bit of, you know, and in my line of work, I talk a lot about this idea of, like, responsible and irresponsible marketing, and I feel like that is some irresponsible marketing.

Shannon [00:08:53]:
Yeah, I would agree.

Lindsay [00:08:54]:
Yes. And so, and what I love about you, there's a lot of things I love about you, but I was joking the other day, I was like, I'm just gonna have people on. We're just gonna talk about how great we are to each other.

Shannon [00:09:09]:
Mirror for it.

Lindsay [00:09:10]:
Exactly. But you've really opened my eyes in terms of creating a course, and I've put a few out there and I've learned a ton since then. But you've really opened my eyes in this idea that it's a lot more work than most people think. And do you find that when your clients come to you, did they sometimes think it's going to be this easy peasy thing you just put out into the world and see you later by.

Shannon [00:09:36]:
Yeah, absolutely and absolutely no fault to them, because that is the message that we have been inundated with over and over again, which is like, we see all these success stories without any of the backstory of what it took for the person to get there. And, you know, people who are often selling courses on how to create courses, like, they, they wouldn't sell as many of those courses if they said what I say, which is, it's a lot of work. It's going to take time and effort and mental exertion, but it's well, well worth it. It's worth that effort. And there's just so many great things about helping people along their journey and helping them achieve amazing things and being involved in their life that way. I mean, that's why so many people go into teaching in general, because it really is a great human service career. But I think that it's, we have to be really realistic about what it takes to create a course that's going to be successful in the online space, especially nowadays. The landscape has completely changed from four years ago, people are more jaded.

Shannon [00:10:46]:
They are more cautious about how they're going to spend their money and what they're going to spend it on. They've had some negative experiences with online courses. And so I think, yeah, it's like the bar has moved. The expectations are different. I'm personally loving it because I think that we should be getting our money's worth when we're paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a course. And so people, there's absolutely room for people to still get into this space and create amazing courses, but they have to be willing to do the work. And I'm very upfront with my clients from the beginning. Working with me is going to be a lot of work.

Shannon [00:11:28]:
Like, my job is to make it easier, smoother, clearer, more organized, more efficient, but it is going to be work. And so, yeah, I'm pretty honest about this.

Lindsay [00:11:41]:
I always joke that my offers are not that sexy because I'm like, I can't. What I do with my clients and teaching people to create content, I'm like, I can't. Like, I can't guarantee you, you know, 10,000 Instagram followers tomorrow. I can't guarantee you $100,000 launch. I'm like, you want to make really good content that you feel good about and you're not burnt out. Yeah, I can teach you to do that. So I feel like you and I have a lot in common, and it's like, just, yeah, it is work. You have to be willing to do the work.

Lindsay [00:12:12]:
And I love that you talk about how there's a responsibility for us, the content creator, and of course there's a responsibility to the students who are doing the thing. But, you know, I'd like to think that many of us who have an online business, it's because, you know, we have a certain smartitude, and we really just want to help other people with that smartitude. So, you know, when you think about it, if you're coming from that place with. With creating a course, I feel like, you know, the right thing to do is to work with somebody like you because. And this is the other thing, right. What I love about the work you do is because you're taking people back to, like, the foundations instead of just like. And I know you've poo pooed on the post it method, which is the method I rely on. But, you know, and I know you've said it's so much more than just shoving up a bunch of post its on the wall, which I agree with, even though that's something I've done, but I agree.

Lindsay [00:13:17]:
Like, you really have to in some of your worksheets, right? Like, it's kind of like, why are you doing this? What do you want your students takeaway to be? Because I feel like so many of us skip those steps in any part of our business. Like, whatever it is, if it's creating a course, if it's creating your content, if it's, like, looking at your offers, whatever it is, I feel like so many of us want to skip over those. Those foundational steps and just get to the good stuff. Right?

Shannon [00:13:43]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, like, oh, my. I have so much to say about what you. So much about what you just said. But, yeah, it's like we. I always say, like, people think, of course creation, the first thing they think of is, okay, I got to make my slides and make my videos. That's at least 50% of the way in. Like, there's.

Shannon [00:14:00]:
There's so much planning and background work that goes into creating a course that you're at least halfway into the work before you're making those slides, slide decks, and videos and everything else. And that framework, that foundation, that groundwork that is so critical to having a high quality course and making your course stand out and. And be different and, okay, awful disclosure on the stickies. I use stickies. I use digital stickies to plan my courses. But there are specific kinds of stickies done for a specific purpose in a specific kind of way. It's not just brainstorming ideas and then organizing them. And that's.

Shannon [00:14:43]:
That's the difference, and that's the difference behind between trying to do it on your own and just, like, brainstorming a whole bunch of stuff and then trying to put it into a course and having the experience of somebody who is an educator with the experience and background to help facilitate you through that process so that it's not so murky, so that it is. There's a framework to it. There's a step by step. And by the end of it, not only do you know that you have an awesome course, but you're so confident in the course that you're putting forward that you feel good about the price you're charging. You have passion and enthusiasm when you're talking about it, and you really have conviction when you're talking to people and saying, like, hey, this is a great course that can get you. Get you results when you haven't gone through that process. You sound a lot more wishy washy. You're like, I'm going to do something I think it's going to be pretty good.

Shannon [00:15:36]:
Come along for the ride, and it's a completely different message. And then I think that what you were saying at the beginning goes back to kind of that ethical marketing thing. So the message that people are saying, it's like thinking about it from the course creators perspective. Like, hey, you can create a course. You don't have to do a lot of work. You don't have to be involved in it. You can make a lot of money, lay on the beach, blah, blah, blah. That sounds great.

Shannon [00:16:03]:
Well, I would kind of argue with that, but that sounds pretty good from the course creators perspective. But would you want to be the student in that course? Like, here's two courses you could take. This person got really involved in the creation and wanted to make sure that it was a great course. They're involved in it. They're going to help you and make sure that you achieve results. And like your results, they care about that. That's important to them. Here's another course teach is the same thing.

Shannon [00:16:29]:
They created it pretty quickly. They're just putting it out there. They're not involved at all. And whether or not you get results, really up to you. Now, as a customer, as a student, which of those two courses would you want to pick? Nobody's talking about that. Everybody's just talking about it from the benefits of the course creator. And that's not how it works. It's just not how it works.

Shannon [00:16:51]:
And the other thing I wanted to mention, too, is, like, so much of the emphasis is on content, and that's such a small part. And becoming a smaller and smaller part of online courses, as we have tons more that are out there, as we have AI, like, content is only a small part of the value in a course. And talking to somebody just this morning, actually, and I was saying, you know, like, I always, rightly or wrongly, but I always compare the course to a book. So, like, this online course that's going to have, you know, have some content and have it organized and give it to me that I'm supposed to consume for several hundred dollars. How does that compare to a book that I can buy in the store that's also going to just give me some content organized into some chapters for $30 because often there's a lot more effort that went into the book and what went into the course that took that, you know, I'm supposed to pay hundreds of dollars for. So I think there's just such a, there's just a paradigm shift. There's a mindset shift that needs to happen, and that's starting to happen. And I love these conversations and that you have, you know, created this platform to allow this conversation to continue because I think it's going to become more and more crucial as time goes on.

Lindsay [00:18:08]:
Yeah. And I totally agree. And I think, and I love that you say, like, you know, immediately people are like, oh, well, I got to get my slides on canva, and I got to get my zoom set up and da da da da da, which is, you know, and with your students, that's like, not until way later. And I've definitely been guilty of being like, well, I'm creating this thing and it's super awesome. Come and do it with me. Right. Like, especially when I switched from, you know, like, for the longest time, I only did copywriting. And then when I switched to, you know, from creating content for people to teaching content, like, that was a tough switch for me.

Lindsay [00:18:45]:
I didn't know what I was doing, and I just was like, I made this thing come and do it, which I think is why that foundational piece is so important and that applies to any part of your business. And I know why. And that's part of why the reason we're doing the program, we are, because Jan is so great at those foundational pieces, which are not sexy and kind of nerdy, but I'm really leaning into the nerdy stuff this year, and I feel like it's paying off. So long live the nerdy stuff.

Shannon [00:19:21]:
Absolutely. And in your defense, the majority of people who are creating courses, you know, they're not doing it with ill intent, and nor were you. Like, you're not putting this out there and saying, like, I'm going to create this, like, crappy product and hope that people buy it. You're doing what you know, you're doing the best you can. You're doing what you've been told is the way to do it. And so you don't know what you don't know. And that's like, there's no guilt, there's no judgment, there's no shame for anybody out there who has gone down that path, because that's the prevailing wisdom out there, is that that's the way to do it. And so, yeah, it's just like, the whole purpose is just to kind of, like, shed this light on the fact that there's more to it.

Shannon [00:20:08]:
It's not your fault that you didn't know that. But now that you do, what are you going to do about it?

Lindsay [00:20:13]:
Yes. And I've had people ask me, like, I'd love to create a course. What should it be on? And I'm kind of like, well, first of all, I'm not an expert. And now that I know you well, go Doctor Shannon. But sometimes I feel like not everything is coarse worthy. And I feel like that is sometimes a tough conversation to have. Like, it's not even if you are, you know, I mean, and the term expert, I feel like, is getting thrown around a lot these days. Like, sometimes, you know, you and I are experts because we've been doing this for 20 years, but somebody who just, you know, and I talk about, I don't know why I'm always talking about plumbing.

Lindsay [00:20:59]:
I'm like, I can listen to a podcast about fixing your toilet. It doesn't make me a plumber into the world saying, yeah, I'm a plumbing expert, right? Or, you know, watch Grey's Anatomy and be like, yep, I'm a surgeon now.

Shannon [00:21:13]:
So anyways, yeah, it's a great, it's a great analogy. And it's the, I think what teaching is one of the disciplines that is most kind of victim to that, falls victim to that the most because everybody has been a student and has watched dozens of teachers. And so there's this idea that, like, we too can go out and teach. And it's a great ambition. I love that people want to do it, but let's please recognize, you know, the education and experience and knowledge that goes behind doing it. Well. And let's be honest, too many of us have not had a whole plethora of good teachers in our educational experience either. So our frame of reference can be a little bit skewed as well.

Shannon [00:22:00]:
So, like, first of all, let's acknowledge that what we're doing is teaching, but that what we want to do is good teaching so that our students can have good results and our business can grow and scale and be profitable and, you know, achieve. We can achieve all the things that we want to through our business.

Lindsay [00:22:18]:
Also, I know on some of your branding it says content coach. I feel like that's not really what you do.

Shannon [00:22:25]:
It's not. And I changed it. I'm still not happy with it. So I changed it now to course coach. I'm still not totally happy with it, but I have not met the genius yet who can adequately describe what it is that I do because. Yeah, and it's hard because everybody else who's out there who's doing these teaching people how to create online courses, they're talking about how to build your audience, how to launch, how to market, how to make the videos and put it on a platform and all the tech behind it, and everybody's just like really briefly skirting over. They're like, now create your course part of it. And that's all of what I do is that how to create your course part of it? So sometimes people aren't even asking, how do I create a quality course? Because they don't even know that that's what they should be asking.

Shannon [00:23:19]:
So if there's any geniuses out there, come up with a better name for me, all ears. But basically what I do. Yeah. Is I facilitate the process of creating that course in a really efficient way that's going to get great results for you and your students.

Lindsay [00:23:35]:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, obviously you and I have thrown this word content around a million times, and I feel like it's one of those things that sometimes it starts to lose meaning a little bit because what you do and what I do, even though we working in this, like, content space is very different. So, yeah. And so I know I relate to you and sometimes it's tough to explain, like, give myself just like two words when I have so much background. And it's interesting because I can do it for somebody else all day long and be like, you know, I can look at a bird's eye view and be like, well, this is what you do, but sometimes doing it for yourself is very tough.

Shannon [00:24:21]:
Absolutely.

Lindsay [00:24:21]:
Yeah. Thank you, Shannon. You're delightful.

Shannon [00:24:26]:
As are you. Thanks for having me.

Lindsay [00:24:28]:
Oh, thanks. Oh, well, thank you. So, Shannon, where can people find you and how can they work with you?

Shannon [00:24:36]:
Thanks for asking. So in all places, I'm Shannon L. Boyer. So www.shannonlboyer.com is my website. Instagram is the same. There are many ways that people can work with me. So if you go on my website, I do free discovery calls. So if you want to reach out and see, like is, they're a match here.

Shannon [00:24:55]:
It's not a sales call. It's really just like a, can we use your mutual benefit here? You can do that for free. I have a free download. Seven things every course needs to max student referrals. That's great. It's a checklist and a guide. So you want to check that out for sure. And every Wednesday I host a free sip and share 01:00 mountain time.

Shannon [00:25:16]:
And we get to get together for 45 minutes, just chat about, like, what we're struggling with with course recreation, what our questions are, sharing resources with each other and just really having a great time trying to further our knowledge and skills in creating these great courses that are going to get results for our students. So let's welcome and open to everybody.

Lindsay [00:25:39]:
Thank you. And I feel like this discussion, people need to hear this, that it's not as easy as everybody thinks it is. So thanks for sharing that, and thank you for having me. And the word on the street is that you're starting a podcast. Are we allowed to talk about that?

Shannon [00:25:55]:
Oh, you're gonna make me do it now?

Lindsay [00:25:57]:
Yeah, of course I'm calling you out.

Shannon [00:26:00]:
You are calling me out. Yes.

Lindsay [00:26:04]:
Coming soon.

Shannon [00:26:04]:
Everyone in my life is seriously pushing me in that direction. So, yeah, I think it's gonna happen. I'm really excited about it because it's going to be uncovering the truth behind course creation and making sure that people have realistic expectations that they don't get discouraged when they realize it's not what they expected, and then helping people through the process so that we can all be successful at the end.

Lindsay [00:26:28]:
Love it. Love it. Thanks for joining us, everybody, and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening. If you loved what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, or share this episode on social media. And don't forget to tag me on Instagram at lindsaysmithcreative. And if you do all three, I'll be your best friend forever and invite you to all my birthday parties. That's it for today, and I'll see you next time.

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